Intuitive Finance managing director Andrew Mirams graces the Elite Broker show this week to reveal how he first got into the industry, how he wrote 346 loans last year and why he believes being a specialist allows for greater growth.
Third in the 2017 Elite Business Writers ranking and a finalist for this year’s Best Finance Broker Award at the Better Business Awards (Victoria), Mr Mirams reveals the skills he transferred from the banking industry and the factors he attributes to his success.
Tune in to find out his top learnings after working in finance for more than 30 years and his key tips for brokers starting out.
You will also hear about his thoughts on:
Announcer: Welcome to the Elite Broker podcast. This is your host Annie Kane.
Annie Kane: Hello and welcome back to The Adviser's Elite Broker podcast. I'm Annie Kane, editor of The Adviser, and I'm joined as always by James Mitchell, managing editor of Mortgages. How are you doing, James?
James Mitchell: Very good, thanks Annie.
Annie Kane: So today we're speaking to a very well established and award-winning Victoria based broker who many of you may know. It's Andrew Mirams, who's managing director of Intuitive Finance. Now, Andrew's been in the industry, in the finance industry, for over a quarter of a century and a broker for more than 15 years. And he's established himself as one of the country's top brokers, having risen through the ranks of our Elite Business Writers ranking, this year coming third.
So in this episode of Elite Broker we find out how he wrote 346 loans last year, what makes him the best finance broker, his thoughts on education standards, and what he thinks of APRA's crackdowns. Let's find out a little bit more from Andrew. So, Andrew, you've been speeding up our Elite Business Writers rankings over the years and you've recently been announced as a finalist for the Best Finance Broker category in the Better Business Awards for Victoria. And the office is also up for Best Independent Office Award. But going back to the beginning, how did you first get into broking?
Andrew Mirams: Very good question. I was a banker. So I was a banker for 15 years and then decided that I'd watched all my bosses, I guess, or mentors in the bank get to a certain stage and then the banks have a really good way of shifting good people on. So I thought I'd make the choice of getting out, 15 years ago almost to the day, actually. And get into broking, 'cause I always enjoyed helping clients and doing what I did. But I just thought I could do it better as a broker and-
James Mitchell: Which bank did you work for?
Andrew Mirams: ANZ.
James Mitchell: Okay.
Andrew Mirams: So I had a long and successful ANZ career. But like I said, when you've seen all your mentors get moved on it makes you just wonder when your tap on the shoulder is coming next.
Annie Kane: Yeah. So you made the decision to make the jump into broking and assume you went and did a diploma or a Cert IV?
Andrew Mirams: I did. Well, no, we didn't need that then.
Annie Kane: Oh, okay.
Andrew Mirams: No, 15 years ago we didn't need a diploma or a certificate so we were able to pretty much come out with experience and everything else like that. Able to get into broking pretty simply. I think with a police check and a resume, and that was about it. So I've been broking for 15 years. So, yeah, I've seen a lot of changes over that time.
Annie Kane: And I'm assuming now you have one of those.
Andrew Mirams: Oh, I have all that, yeah.
Annie Kane: Yeah. Just thinking, "Oh, my gosh."
James Mitchell: Nah. We're going to get around to that. That's on the list.
Andrew Mirams: You can't do anything now without your diploma so I am an advocate for getting the diploma. I still don't think it teaches you enough but the certificate almost teaches you nothing, in my opinion, having had a few people go through and do it.
Annie Kane: Yeah.
Andrew Mirams: I don't think it's…
James Mitchell: I want to know about the sort of skills you took from your time working at ANZ as a banker. What skills were transferable to broking and what were the new skills which banking just didn't prepare you for at all? 'Cause we were having a chat with Effie Nicol from Yellow Brick Road and she worked at a bank as well, but she said, you know, she knew Westpac's lending policy in and out. But then, in terms of, you know, learning all the other different ones, it was a real learning curve for her. What were some of the challenges and transferable skills for you?
Andrew Mirams: Yeah, that's a great question. I think once you learn credit, irrespective of whichever lender you come from, if you've got an idea of what makes sense from a credit perspective. So have they got a contribution, what's the LVR and, you know, can they afford to make your repayments? That's transferable anywhere, okay? There's no doubt about that. Meeting clients and networking and doing things in a bank is the same as when you're broking.
What I was staggered with when I first came out was how much more you could do. How greater wide world with all the lenders, and then you have, you know, your sub-prime and your non-conforming and all that sort of stuff. You could almost lend to anyone. And I was very conditioned or used to saying no to people.
Annie Kane: Yeah.
Andrew Mirams: You know, anyone that didn't meet the bank's policy, you'd sorry, but I can't help you. And now all of a sudden you had this wide world of you could almost do anything and everything. It was fantastic. That's not to say I've never done non-conforming. I think in 15 years of broking I think I've done two non-conforming loans. We don't do low-doc loans or anything like that, so we still stay very much in the prime and the meat space.
But with 30 odd lenders on your panel it means you can find a way for almost every client. There's very few that we couldn't help. And that was just a great eye-opener. But then learning 30 lenders and learning all their policies and their products is a challenge in itself as well.
Annie Kane: And just in terms of the actual education piece, you know, having to sort of get up to speed with all of that, how fast did that take you or how long did that take you to actually get up to speed?
Andrew Mirams: And I say 30 lenders. We've got 30 on our panel but the reality is, it's a huge ... Well, when you do bigger numbers I think we used about, last year I think I've used 12 to 15. Probably about 12 lenders.
James Mitchell: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Andrew Mirams: Because if you can't find the 12 to 15 lenders, you're probably not going to find it in the other 15 or so. And you find the people that give you the best service and the best products and things like that. But starting out, you probably stick to half a dozen. You know, six to 10 in reality. This is what they can do, and then you've just got to spend the time to learn, inside and out, what you can and can't do. Who can do it, spending lots of time on networking with your BDMs. It's finding good people, it's finding people with that can do attitude.
'Cause you do learn a lot on the run. You actually have to, you know, get on the phone, work the phones. Not just for clients but really work the phones for your BDMs. And that's something still I do today. You know, I now have ... I'm fortunate, I guess, in my position to have, you know, the phone numbers of state managers and national managers that you can network and ask questions. But a day wouldn't go by where I haven't talked to two or three of my BDMs just to run scenarios past them. And I think that's the best way to learn and to network.
And things are changing. You know, what we can do today will probably be different tomorrow so you've got to try and stay on top of it as best you can.
Annie Kane: I think it's interesting what you were saying a little bit earlier about not doing the low-doc loans really, particularly, or non-conforming. What was the decision behind that?
Andrew Mirams: Well, I always when I was in the bank, and I was a very high performing bank manager, I worked in small business and investment and things like that. And I really enjoyed doing. I had a great network of accountants and I had a great network of investors. So I really enjoyed that space of helping people grow their, you know, waltz through property investment. And I really enjoyed working with self-employed clients.
And I think low-doc for a long time there was really a bit of a cheat's way out. It was just easy and with the banks there was no pricing differential. Just, actually, I think it opened clients and people up to potential loss and damage. Whereas if you can actually read financial statements and you know what you're talking about and you can help clients and work with them, it gives you far greater credibility.
I've always believed in being a bit more of a specialist than a generalist. You know, I think there's lots of successful people out there that generalise and do a bit of everything, but I think if you want to grow to the numbers of the top 20 or 30 or 50 or hundred people in Australia, you'll find that a lot of them actually specialise in certain fields. They're really good at some type of business. So that's always been my philosophy and it's just something that I still stick true to today when I talk to, you know, new people coming in. It's make sure you find something that you're really good at and then be the best at it.
Annie Kane: So is your specialty the sort of vanilla loans for mum and dads?
Andrew Mirams: No. I'm helping through a mutual connection of first home buyers at the minute and I've got to say I haven't got a clue what I'm doing. I don't know anything about the FHOG. I don't 'cause it's just not a market I work in. It's just not what I do. I specialise in investors and self-employed clients, and helping them and growing their portfolios that way.
Annie Kane: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Andrew Mirams: So, yeah, if I get a young person in here asking me about first home loans and things like that, they'd probably go, "How is this bloke any good? You know, he doesn't know what he's talking about." But I'm very open and honest with them and say, "You know, this is not what I specialise in. What I'm really good at is this space but we're helping you because of the mutual connection."
Annie Kane: Right.
James Mitchell: In terms of the, you know, those self-employed clients that you work with, I mean, I'd assume that there'd be quite a few alternative lenders and non-banks playing in that space, more so than your prime or major bank lenders. Is that safe to say?
Andrew Mirams: No, not really. No, everyone's got different policies. I think as an industry we generalise too much, James.
James Mitchell: Yeah, yeah.
Andrew Mirams: We say, "Oh, you know, they're the low-doc lender and they're the specialist lender and they're this and they're that." There's not a one size fits all. So, no, probably more of our self-employed clients, we like the one year policy and AIMS that have done that really well.
James Mitchell: Yeah, of course.
Andrew Mirams: So now you're finding a few more stepping into that space. It makes sense to average over too. Like as of today, we're in January of 2018, you're looking at some lenders still looking at financials of to June '16. Which then goes back to, you know, the July of '15.
James Mitchell: Yeah.
Annie Kane: Yeah.
Andrew Mirams: How does that make sense when you're assessing what a client's creditworthiness is? So you've got to be a little bit smarter. So we look at a whole range of things and there's differing lenders. We do do some of them with some of our non-banks. You know, I've probably grown a lot over the last year or so in using more and more non-banks. But I think probably still the majors with the one years probably do them a little bit better than the others 'cause they have a greater portfolio and a better handle on probably statistically and analytically able to look at the success rates.
And we like self-employed clients 'cause they're aspirational and they're very entrepreneurial. So they've got that can do attitude and looking at how they can, you know, help themselves move on and be successful.
Annie Kane: Yeah.
James Mitchell: Yeah. I mean, do you always just handle the property side or do often do vehicle and equipment and asset finance and some of the business lending stuff as well?
Andrew Mirams: Yeah, we do. I had a business banking and commercial background so I do a bit. When I came in 15 years ago, it was sort of, you know, two or three times the workload for about half the pay, so it made no sense to spend all my time there.
Annie Kane: Yeah.
James Mitchell: Yeah.
Andrew Mirams: It's a lot better now. But it's probably just as my business grew and migrated into what we're really good at, I don't go looking for it. We do do cars. I've got a couple of brokers and, you know, we do the odd car or some equipment finance. And we do a little bit of commercial lending. I still know I've, you know, I've got a pretty good handle on that. But it's not something that really floats my boat. It's not something that really makes me want to do that.
And I guess to speak, you know, to the generalising or the specialising. Because it doesn't really excite me, I don't go looking for it, to be honest.
Annie Kane: Right. But one of the things that we know that you do do is mortgages. And in our Elite Business Writers ranking for 2017, you wrote 346 loans. So almost a loan a day.
James Mitchell: Almost one a day, yeah.
Annie Kane: Yeah. I mean, how do you manage that and how do you find the business for that?
Andrew Mirams: Yeah. You've got to have great people around you 'cause fair to say, I don't do everything. So I've got a great team here at Intuitive. Three relationship managers that support me and a general manager that helps me run the staffing, and a PA who is just sensational. So you've got to have the right people around you to allow you to do those numbers 'cause it's physically impossible to do that type of volume all on your own. And that would go to, say, for anyone that's writing good numbers. They've got to have a great team around them.
In terms of finding them, you've just got to network. Again, I heard Steven Bradbury, and for anyone that hasn't heard Steven Bradbury speak, I think he's probably one of the better people I've every heard speak. And he had a great saying of, you know, it took him 12 years of becoming an overnight success when he won that gold medal. Everyone just saw everyone fall over in front of him and thought, "Oh, how easy is that?" But, you know, he nearly lost his life twice, bleeding out with, you know, quite a dangerous sport. And the work he had to do to get to that stage was phenomenal.
So I say to the staff here and other writers, "You know, it's taken me 15 years to become an overnight success."
Annie Kane: Yeah.
Andrew Mirams: So it just takes time. You've just to work hard and network and really build that funnel. And then it becomes a bit like a snowball, you know, going down the hill. It just becomes a bit self-perpetuating. If you do the right things often enough, it'll continue to follow you.
James Mitchell: With a broker of your experience, you know, and who's put in the hard yards and has that time on the tools in the industry, do you pass that on to other brokers, younger brokers coming through the ranks? You know, do you mentor anyone or is it something that you're looking to do?
Andrew Mirams: Yeah. So I've got a broker that's been going for about two years but 18 months with us on the Sunshine Coast. I've got another guy here who's been broking with me almost two years. And interestingly my son, who's 23, works in the business. He's just now an accredited broker.
James Mitchell: Oh, excellent.
Andrew Mirams: So I'm mentoring him.
Annie Kane: A family business.
James Mitchell: Yeah, a family business.
Andrew Mirams: Yeah. It's nice to come to work with your son every day. It's not to say it hasn't had its challenges. But that's good. He's, so yeah, there. I think there's a real gap in mentoring as an industry. People getting in, they fail for, in my opinion, for one or two reasons. Either they don't have the credit, so we've, you know, got an Uber driver or a hairdresser that thinks it's easy doing what we do.
Annie Kane: Yeah.
James Mitchell: Yeah, yeah.
Andrew Mirams: And they don't have a clue and they balls it up. Or the other one is people that can't find enough leads. And both of those are very hard skills to teach. There's some people who can naturally network and write business and can work it out. But it is hard work. I was lucky to have a great background in the bank to teach me about credit and all those sort of things. But people starting afresh, it's not easy. It's not as easy as what everyone thinks. Oh, brokers make all this money. Yeah, let's go and become a broker. It takes a bit of work to be really good at it.
James Mitchell: How did you first start generating leads when you left the bank? Obviously, you know, at the bank customers come through the door. You don't necessarily have to go looking for them. But when you're a broker, you know, you've got to drum up the business. How did you first start doing that?
Andrew Mirams: I was very, very lucky, James. I wasn't one of those bankers that had it hand delivered. I had to go out and fight for my food.
James Mitchell: Oh, right, so had to prospect?
Andrew Mirams: Yeah, so it taught me that skill to network and to ask, you know, people for business and how do you ask them for business? And if you do a good job it's easier to ask them for the business. So it just flowed across to broking. And especially when you could do more business for more people, your network very quickly grows. But it was going back and tapping your accountants and tapping, you know, your financial planners and the real estate agents and you're in the buyers agents, and telling them what they did. And with every client that you did a good job, asking them if they could send, you know, someone else you know. I think every person you meet grows your network by three.
James Mitchell: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Andrew Mirams: So it's normally a family, a friend and a business network. So an accountant, planner, someone else that you can kind of tap into. And that's one of the things I try and teach everyone here is, you know, every contact you make, it should be growing your network by three. So that there's a family friend or a business associate that they have that they should or could be able to refer you to.
James Mitchell: Yes.
Annie Kane: That's a good rule of thumb to have, I think. Especially if you're sort of a new broker and maybe starting out on your own, you might not have those sort of rules in place yet or know what is a good number to have from each referral.
James Mitchell: Yeah. Three is the magic number.
Annie Kane: Exactly. That's what we've ... Andrew Mirams said it first.
James Mitchell: There you go.
Andrew Mirams: Yeah, if you can go by three with every client. And you won't get it, but if you just get the opportunity to speak to three people. Like one of the things early on starting out, if I got a new client and I didn't know their accountant, I'd say, "Look, I'm going to need your financials but can you authorise your accountant to speak to me and let me talk to them?" And that gave me an opportunity to, one, show my credibility in terms of that I knew what I was talking about. But also to talk to that accountant and say, "Hi, have you ever met with someone? Do you know what we do? Can I come and meet you? I'd love to have a coffee with you." And through that you grow some great networks.
And connections similar with conveyancers who are a lot more transaction focused. But if you can get in front of accountants and financial planners and buyers advocates and things like that, because the reality is everyone's looking for more business. You know, even with what I'm doing, I'm still looking to actively grow and write more. Whether it's by me or whether it's by more of the brokers within the business here. But we're all looking for more business. You know, and there's going to be great opportunities, I think, over the next year or two with the continuing credit tightening for us to get more business and more opportunities.
Annie Kane: I was going to ask you about that, actually. So, I mean, in 2017 we saw, you know, a lot of crackdowns in terms of, you know, interest only lending curbs. And then APRA coming in. We had reviews. There was a lot of oversight into the sector. You're sort of mentioning there, suggesting that next, this year even ... What year are we in? I don't even know.
James Mitchell: 2018, yeah. And counting.
Annie Kane: But this year there'll be, you know, an opportunity for brokers to really step into the fore and demonstrate what they can do. And what situations do you envisage that happening?
Andrew Mirams: I saw it happening mid last year. I saw that we got a lot of enquiry from ... We also specialise in ex-pats. We've got quite a good ex-pat base of clients around the world. We started to find that through our online networking and marketing, we started to get a real heavy inflow of enquiries from ex-pats. And similarly with investors. So the harder that it gets, whereas people are used to walking into their bank and they're just going, "Yep, there you go." And they're saying, "Oh, sorry, I can't help."
People are now looking for specialists. They're looking for people who know what they are doing. And they're looking for people who can genuinely help them and give them advice. I think, you know, whilst we're not meant to give advice, the reality is we do every single day. Being able to sit down with a client and having an honest conversation about what they can and can't do, and where they can improve and what they can do better is something where brokers, especially experienced people, that we can sit down with clients and have really good conversations about how we can help them grow their portfolios.
Or sometimes, you know, saying no is everyone thinks the ability to being successful if what you can say yes to. It's not. It's what you can say no to. And being able to say no and, you know, it's not right now for your clients. I've sort of got a philosophy of it's never no but it might be not now if there's a client that's pushed too hard when it was a little bit easier to get money. Sometimes they do just have to wait and, you know, investing in property is about the time. It's buying time, it's not just buying properties that you'll make money in. It's over time is where you'll, you know, make your money.
So, yeah, I think there's some great opportunities in 2018. I don't think it's going to get any easier any time soon. It's interesting, late last year Wayne Byres from APRA came out, the chairman of APRA said, "You know, these are all temporary measures." But he's never articulated to anyone about how temporary or what measures might change in the future, or what their actual outcome. But the one thing I probably-
James Mitchell: Yeah, there's no timeframe, is there?
Andrew Mirams: Well, it's the one thing I've been critical of APRA. I think a lot of the things they've done, they've got right. Make no mistake, I think, you know, it arguably was too easy. And, you know, an investor getting a 97% interest only loan just didn't make sense. You're just putting people at risk should the markets move. And we all know markets move at different times. And some of the mining towns would be a great opportunity to, you know, sort of promote that.
So a lot of the things they did, I think they've got right. But they haven't articulated what they were trying to achieve, what sort of timeline and what outcomes they hoping to get. So that's the sort of thing for more experienced people, people coming into this. I've been through a few cycles, obviously, over 30 years in banking and lending, that you've seen cycles come and go. We've seen the GFC, we've seen, you know, the recession we had to have. I can go back that late, that long ago. You've seen all those things that you know it's a cycle. But they just haven't articulated very well, the regulators, on exactly what they're trying to achieve, what they would like to see and when they would like to see it by.
And I think that would help all of us manage client expectations. Because all of us will have lots of clients that are getting frustrated with being told no. And when you can't give them really an outcome of what or when they might be able to move again.
Annie Kane: And just going back a little bit earlier in this podcast, you were mentioning about education standards and talking about, you know, thinking that the Cert IV and the diploma probably doesn't really offer as much as it should for brokers. What is it that you think is missing from those qualifications and how would you like to see education for this profession improved?
Andrew Mirams: Yeah, I will applaud CBA. Someone had to make a bit of a stance and they have. I think they haven't articulated also as well as what they could have with their new standards, but someone at some point, if you want to improve standards in the industry, someone's got to make a standpoint. I'd be staggered if a lot of the other lenders and people like that didn't start to tighten up. Because it costs them a lot of money to manage, you know, accreditations and manage people. And if people are coming into the industry and they're making a dog's breakfast of all their submissions and they were never going to get through, then that is a real issue.
I think the certificate's run its race. I don't see anything in there that actually would help someone start broking. Having had, like I said, a few people go and do that. I think the diploma still has a great education standard but I think it can go a bit further. I think teaching people ... In there they do a marketing plan but it doesn't teach you how to market. And it teaches you how to write a loan. It doesn't teach you about all the to's and fro's. And I still think there's a massive ... I still think mentoring ... Like I just went and chased mentors, both in industry and just successful people. I think if you want to be successful, you've just got to know and have good people around that you can ring and have discussions with.
I think the mentoring piece, there's a lot of mentors out there really do nothing to help their mentee. And I think it's a massive gap in our market still that aggregators and lenders could be a lot stronger with enforcing and making sure that people are getting the right opportunity to be successful. And not just getting a number in the door. I think we get fixated on 16,000 or 17,000 or however many brokers there are. We all got fixated on that. When you look at the average broker, they're writing 10 million a year or less. And if you were to take that top 25 in your Elite Broker, that means there's a lot of people not doing much at all.
Annie Kane: Yeah.
Andrew Mirams: And that, I think, is concerning. So that's what I mean. I think CBA are to be applauded. I still think they have to articulate better to the industry what it looks like. I don't understand how someone can be loan writing for two years and then get your accreditation. 'Cause if all of the lenders say no, you've got to be loan writers, how does someone prove they can write loans?
Annie Kane: Actually write a loan, yeah.
Andrew Mirams: So it's sort of the chicken and the egg discussion. But a lot, I think, you know, it's just they were standing for something. They want to improve the industry and I'm all for that. I would love at the end of my broking career to say I'm leaving a profession, not an industry.
James Mitchell: Yeah, good point.
Annie Kane: And I think it's really interesting as well, you know, having that sort of it's almost like making it an apprenticeship scheme. So I think what CBA is saying is like, you know, well, you need to have two years under your belt because they kind of want to make it more like an apprenticeship. And while we do have that already with mentors, I think we are seeing increasingly people understanding that maybe it's more than a Cert IV. It requires a bit more hands on experience as well. Although I think maybe two years before you can accredit with a bank might be a bit much. But I also just want to know in terms of what you're doing in terms of the-
Andrew Mirams: I think so, Annie. I think, you know, if someone had come out. Like, say, myself had had 15 years banking experience, you'd like to think with a bit of work experience that would make sense. But if I was new to industry, like completely new, then there should be some checks and balances there.
James Mitchell: Yeah.
Andrew Mirams: And I think, though, the MFAA, FBAA have a role to play in that. And I also think aggregators, very much instead of just grabbing people and getting numbers in the door, that they have a role to play there. CBA's taken the lead here but I think all of the parties can and should be looking to take a bit of a lead in improving the standards across the board. 'Cause it can only be better for everyone.
And remember, a lot of people are giving advice to the greatest investment most people will ever make. So having some standards in place just makes sense, I think.
James Mitchell: Well, I think, I mean, when you've got inexperienced brokers or those new to the industry putting deals through to CBA, for example, and, you know, the quality of the deal's probably not up to par. And then, you know, there's reworks involved and there's back and forth, that slows down the whole process for everyone. I think that's the problem.
Andrew Mirams: Absolutely.
Annie Kane: Yeah, I think that's what CBA said. Yeah.
Andrew Mirams: Absolutely.
Annie Kane: And in terms of actually your thought leaderships, I know that you do like videos and articles and tips, and there's quite a lot that you do in terms of educating not just clients but also brokers. I mean, is that because you think there's this gap?
Andrew Mirams: Yes. I think there is a heavy gap. We're developing a programme as we speak, actually, in working with giving people the opportunity so in the next next, hopefully in this year, we'd love to be able to offer the opportunity for people to join us. They'll learn from the ground up and they'll be mentored by me over an 18 month to two year process. And our plan will be, just with that end in mind, is making people successful.
So we're partway down the path. There's a lot of work to do because I'm determined to make sure it's the best programme out there to give people the opportunity. And that's something I just think there's a massive ... And I think a lot of our leading brokers, some of them say, you know, they'd like to leave the industry or the profession in a better state. Well, I'm sort of taking that next step and now trying to develop a programme so I can genuinely say that that's what I want to do.
So, yeah, I think there's some great mentor programmes coming up. I think that people have now recognised there's an opportunity there. And I think that's just going to be a huge opportunity for the broking industry as it is today. To improve standards across the board is having good people actually taking some mentoring roles.
Annie Kane: Well, we look forward to hearing more about that, Andrew, in the year. And best of luck with the programme. I think that's pretty much all the time we have for, but thank you so much for taking the time to speak to us and for sharing your insights. And happy new year.
James Mitchell: Yeah, cheers, Andrew. Good to chat.
Andrew Mirams: Thanks, Jane. Thanks, Annie. Happy new year to you and my pleasure.
Annie Kane: Well, thank you all very much for tuning in to Elite Broker podcast. And as always, for all the news, features, updates and insights, please visit theadviser.com.au. And stay tuned for next week's episode with Bernard Desmond from Loan Market.
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